Though out my postings I will bring up EVE quite a bit. First off because it is unique in that there isn't any online game like it. Also because I think they have shown that a quite few concepts that are tricky to do right can be done, given enough time and dedication.
What did EVE succeed in doing:
1) Create a completely player driven economy. Except for a very limited number of items, like skill books and very basic equipment, everything is player driven. It has either been found/looted by the players or manufacture from other components by players.
2) PvP with meaning. "Never fly anything you can not afford to lose." That is the golden rule of EVE. Because one day, you will lose it. This goes doubly so in PvP. You will lose your ship. It may take a while but one day, someone else will be luckier than you.
3) Free form character growth. You are not stuck in anyone mold in EVE. You can start doing one thing, then over time learn something completely new.
4) Conquest and Player Empires. Over its 5 years, there have been many major alliances and many of them have fallen. At anyone time there are maybe two or three active, and then lots of smaller ones. But over time all the big ones have fallen.
However there is one thing that makes EVE a difficult game to play. It is very slow.
First it takes a long time to figure out what is going on. Fortunately you can't make any mistakes in your first few days of playing that can not be corrected fairly quickly. At worse the skill you though you needed now, you will need later.
Second, it is the type of game where you must think long term. When I log in I not only think about what I am doing today, but what I must set in motion now in order to reap the benefit the next day, week or even month(s). I would spend almost as much time planning what I was going to do as actually doing it.
EVE is not the type of game you can just pop in and do something (other then change skill learning) and pop out. When I was managing a sizable manufacturing operation, I would spend about a half hour a day doing market research, buying supplies, setting up production items and list products. Even then I would still have to spend a few hours one night a week, just to move goods around as needed.
Even my purely combat character. Sure I could just go out and hunt 'rats for a half hour or run a quick mission, but still I would have to spend at least an hour a week doing logistics (suppling, recycling, etc.)
This level of commitment needed to play EVE is also part of its longevity. As you invest more time into the game the more likely you are to want to continue to play.
Every time I think about going back, I look at the fact that it will take me a few hours just to figure out what is going on again and what has changed. Some of that is offline reading, but still it is an investment of time.
Showing posts with label EvE. Show all posts
Showing posts with label EvE. Show all posts
Thursday, June 12, 2008
Wednesday, June 4, 2008
Crafting: Buildin the better mouse trap in game
The Warhammer devs recently released a video podcast on Crafting in WAR.
It is interesting that their two design goals (no grinding useless items, no recipes) are not completely new. They are elements of crafting that are pre-WoW. What is sad is that recent MMOs usually tend to these elements. Lord of the Rings was almost exactly like WoW. Even Vanguard and EQ2 were mostly fixed recipes, you could add some extra bonuses in some items on the fly.
At least with Vanguard and EQ2 there was a bit of a mini-game in actually creating the items and there were various levels of quality.
But putting all that aside, what has and has not worked for crafting in MMORPGs?
The first problem you have to address is which is better. Crafted items or Looted items? For example, why should I spend all my time crafting a sword when it turns out to be a fairly common drop from mobs. Then there is the flip side, why take down bosses for loot if crafting can make a better item.
There are two options to this. First is the EVE and Pirates of the Burning Seas Method. Manufactured items and loot items are the same thing. There is the occasional "named" item that is better, but there is still some rarity.
The second option is to not have the same type items both as loot and crafted. In Star Wars Galaxies, all gear was player created. There was still useful loot like (like dragon pearls and holocrons) but you had no overlap between the two sources of goods.
The second problem is one of over supply. In order to maintain a need for crafting, everything that is craftable must be consumable or destroyable. Much in the same why that you have to regulate the money supply in a game, you have to regulate the item supply.
In EVE, every item can be broken down in to it component parts in order to make different things. Due to built in inefficiencies both in manufacturing and recycling, raw materials are slowly removed from the system with every step. Also every time a ship was destroyed, some of the components would be destroyed as well.
SWG had a fairly aggressive item decay system. Every time you used your weapon it slowly lost durability. The goal here is to make sure that there is enough crafting going on to replace all the decaying equipment at reasonable cost. A player will not spend more money on an item then it will yield in its life time. In fact most players will expect at least a 10:1 if not 100:1 return on investment. For example, If I spend 1000 credits on a rifle, I better be able to make at least 100,000 credits before I have to replace it.
It is interesting that their two design goals (no grinding useless items, no recipes) are not completely new. They are elements of crafting that are pre-WoW. What is sad is that recent MMOs usually tend to these elements. Lord of the Rings was almost exactly like WoW. Even Vanguard and EQ2 were mostly fixed recipes, you could add some extra bonuses in some items on the fly.
At least with Vanguard and EQ2 there was a bit of a mini-game in actually creating the items and there were various levels of quality.
But putting all that aside, what has and has not worked for crafting in MMORPGs?
The first problem you have to address is which is better. Crafted items or Looted items? For example, why should I spend all my time crafting a sword when it turns out to be a fairly common drop from mobs. Then there is the flip side, why take down bosses for loot if crafting can make a better item.
There are two options to this. First is the EVE and Pirates of the Burning Seas Method. Manufactured items and loot items are the same thing. There is the occasional "named" item that is better, but there is still some rarity.
The second option is to not have the same type items both as loot and crafted. In Star Wars Galaxies, all gear was player created. There was still useful loot like (like dragon pearls and holocrons) but you had no overlap between the two sources of goods.
The second problem is one of over supply. In order to maintain a need for crafting, everything that is craftable must be consumable or destroyable. Much in the same why that you have to regulate the money supply in a game, you have to regulate the item supply.
In EVE, every item can be broken down in to it component parts in order to make different things. Due to built in inefficiencies both in manufacturing and recycling, raw materials are slowly removed from the system with every step. Also every time a ship was destroyed, some of the components would be destroyed as well.
SWG had a fairly aggressive item decay system. Every time you used your weapon it slowly lost durability. The goal here is to make sure that there is enough crafting going on to replace all the decaying equipment at reasonable cost. A player will not spend more money on an item then it will yield in its life time. In fact most players will expect at least a 10:1 if not 100:1 return on investment. For example, If I spend 1000 credits on a rifle, I better be able to make at least 100,000 credits before I have to replace it.
Monday, June 2, 2008
We are all Individuals
There is a very weird empirical result of online game design:
The more freedom you offer in character creation and customization, the more everyone will be the same.
It is sort of a contradiction, but it is part of the reason why there are so few "classless" MMORPG systems out there. Now this isn't entirely true as there have been successful Classless games. It all has to do with the amount of freedom of character design is useful in the game. Yet, in the last two years, every major MMORPG release has been class-based.
So how do Classless Systems fail? And why are developers cautious around them?
Back in Ultima Online and Asheron's Call, you had the choice of picking any skills you wanted and create your character freely. Over time, it turned out that there was really only one build that the great majority of players used. AC was worse since there were skills that you could specialize in that were in the end completely useless except in the rarest of cases. A player may have an alt for some of the lesser used but profitable trade/craft skills, but for the most part it was one build or death.
Class based systems suffer a similar fate. WoW has all its classes and feat trees, however, there is usually two or three "accepted" builds for each class in order to be competitive. Now for the single/solo/small group player, you can get away a bit from not being optimal. But when the end game is competition with other players (though Raids and PvP) you have to get every last edge you can.
EVE and Star Wars Galaxies (Pre-NGE) were able to have open ended character design with limited similarities.
In SWG you could easily become a Master in multiple professions. And there were usually multiple professions for different tasks. For example, you could become a specialist in pistols, carbines, rifles or heavy weapons. Ideally neither one of the ranged combat groups was always better than the other. Same for the Melee combat groups, and the different Support/Buff, and Crafter Professions. (There also hybrid professions like the Bounty Hunter and Creature Handler, and they had their own interesting bits.)
The problem with SWG is that there was a point that you were "done" improving your character.
EVE has an open ended character creation and it is also functionally limitless. Your character can always learn more.
There are limited number of skills needed create a nice Raven Missile boat with a solid passive shield tank for missions, but a different set of skills are needed to fly an Apoc armor tank. Both ships fit the same general role, and have certain advantages depending on the specific task at hand.
But then if you want to go in to mining that is a whole different set of skills, not to mention manufacturing and a host of other tasks that are profitable in game.
Over time your character can learn multiple different fields and specialties. But what you are doing at the moment depends on the ship you are flying. Your character's combat skills mean nothing when you are piloting a freighter.
In order for a classless system to succeed it needs the following:
1) There are multiple ways doing one thing. With no one way being always the best.
2) There are many different thing that one can do.
3) Ability for continuous growth.
The problem now is make sure that each method of doing something is equivalent. In EVE there are 4 different type of primary weapon systems. Though it took a while for the devs to finally make sure that each weapon system had its place. And no one weapon system was best in all cases. SWG had the same balance problem between its ranged weapon groups at start.
Having many things to do means a lot more design. You can't just create a crafting mini-game to churn out products if those products have no use in the final cause of the game itself. Or what is the point of being stealthy and have the ability to avoid combat if in the end the game is all about combat?
In SWG it was all about the Galactic Civil War. Most professions had something that could directly contribute to the cause. But a few (entertainers) had very little direct impact on the war.
EVE is much more open ended. Your personal goals are yours alone. Though even in the game of alliance domination, everyone is needed. Building a Titian, requires many different professions, not just the industrialists to make them.
The more freedom you offer in character creation and customization, the more everyone will be the same.
It is sort of a contradiction, but it is part of the reason why there are so few "classless" MMORPG systems out there. Now this isn't entirely true as there have been successful Classless games. It all has to do with the amount of freedom of character design is useful in the game. Yet, in the last two years, every major MMORPG release has been class-based.
So how do Classless Systems fail? And why are developers cautious around them?
Back in Ultima Online and Asheron's Call, you had the choice of picking any skills you wanted and create your character freely. Over time, it turned out that there was really only one build that the great majority of players used. AC was worse since there were skills that you could specialize in that were in the end completely useless except in the rarest of cases. A player may have an alt for some of the lesser used but profitable trade/craft skills, but for the most part it was one build or death.
Class based systems suffer a similar fate. WoW has all its classes and feat trees, however, there is usually two or three "accepted" builds for each class in order to be competitive. Now for the single/solo/small group player, you can get away a bit from not being optimal. But when the end game is competition with other players (though Raids and PvP) you have to get every last edge you can.
EVE and Star Wars Galaxies (Pre-NGE) were able to have open ended character design with limited similarities.
In SWG you could easily become a Master in multiple professions. And there were usually multiple professions for different tasks. For example, you could become a specialist in pistols, carbines, rifles or heavy weapons. Ideally neither one of the ranged combat groups was always better than the other. Same for the Melee combat groups, and the different Support/Buff, and Crafter Professions. (There also hybrid professions like the Bounty Hunter and Creature Handler, and they had their own interesting bits.)
The problem with SWG is that there was a point that you were "done" improving your character.
EVE has an open ended character creation and it is also functionally limitless. Your character can always learn more.
There are limited number of skills needed create a nice Raven Missile boat with a solid passive shield tank for missions, but a different set of skills are needed to fly an Apoc armor tank. Both ships fit the same general role, and have certain advantages depending on the specific task at hand.
But then if you want to go in to mining that is a whole different set of skills, not to mention manufacturing and a host of other tasks that are profitable in game.
Over time your character can learn multiple different fields and specialties. But what you are doing at the moment depends on the ship you are flying. Your character's combat skills mean nothing when you are piloting a freighter.
In order for a classless system to succeed it needs the following:
1) There are multiple ways doing one thing. With no one way being always the best.
2) There are many different thing that one can do.
3) Ability for continuous growth.
The problem now is make sure that each method of doing something is equivalent. In EVE there are 4 different type of primary weapon systems. Though it took a while for the devs to finally make sure that each weapon system had its place. And no one weapon system was best in all cases. SWG had the same balance problem between its ranged weapon groups at start.
Having many things to do means a lot more design. You can't just create a crafting mini-game to churn out products if those products have no use in the final cause of the game itself. Or what is the point of being stealthy and have the ability to avoid combat if in the end the game is all about combat?
In SWG it was all about the Galactic Civil War. Most professions had something that could directly contribute to the cause. But a few (entertainers) had very little direct impact on the war.
EVE is much more open ended. Your personal goals are yours alone. Though even in the game of alliance domination, everyone is needed. Building a Titian, requires many different professions, not just the industrialists to make them.
Monday, May 12, 2008
Stepping into the Fire: PvP
This Saturday, Age of Conan opens up. For the first time I will be starting a new game with my main on a PvP server by choice. I don't count Ultima Online or EVE in this since there was no option otherwise. This is going to be interesting as I only kind of know two other people but I have been accepted in to guild before the game starts this weekend. So I have some social group to work with.
I have never been much for PvP in the past. Mostly because I tend to go off and play on my own. And in most PvP worlds loners die often. Having one or two other players guarding each other makes your survivability much higher.
But to be honest, there is nothing like the thrill of a fight with an equivalent player. When there is some sense of loss then the game gets exciting. Now for me, this does not have to be an actual fight. I have done my fair share of blockade running in EVE. It takes planning, intelligence and some quick reactions to make it though some of the more interesting gate camps. I was playing the mouse in a game of cat and mouse.
But Conan will be the first game where I intend to play a more aggressive role. In EVE and UO I spent my time as a industrialist/crafter.
Currently I have one major concern for Conan. How will the developers deal with Spawn Camping. Will there be an area of safety around resurrection points and gate in spots? Spawning is a game imposed mechanic and I don't want to have to die because of a technical issue.
This is one area I think EVE made some good choices. Camping a gate in EVE was fairly common. It was not a guaranteed gank all the time. If you prepared yourself correctly you could sneak though. However there were different types of gate camp set-ups which required slightly different counters. And if you did set yourself up to counter everything, then you may be sacrificing some other function (ie speed or cargo.)
So there are other ways then straight immunity at spawn points. I am curious to see what Age of Conan does.
I have never been much for PvP in the past. Mostly because I tend to go off and play on my own. And in most PvP worlds loners die often. Having one or two other players guarding each other makes your survivability much higher.
But to be honest, there is nothing like the thrill of a fight with an equivalent player. When there is some sense of loss then the game gets exciting. Now for me, this does not have to be an actual fight. I have done my fair share of blockade running in EVE. It takes planning, intelligence and some quick reactions to make it though some of the more interesting gate camps. I was playing the mouse in a game of cat and mouse.
But Conan will be the first game where I intend to play a more aggressive role. In EVE and UO I spent my time as a industrialist/crafter.
Currently I have one major concern for Conan. How will the developers deal with Spawn Camping. Will there be an area of safety around resurrection points and gate in spots? Spawning is a game imposed mechanic and I don't want to have to die because of a technical issue.
This is one area I think EVE made some good choices. Camping a gate in EVE was fairly common. It was not a guaranteed gank all the time. If you prepared yourself correctly you could sneak though. However there were different types of gate camp set-ups which required slightly different counters. And if you did set yourself up to counter everything, then you may be sacrificing some other function (ie speed or cargo.)
So there are other ways then straight immunity at spawn points. I am curious to see what Age of Conan does.
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